Curse

Bazompora · Jun 20, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

/notsigned

I can tell pets are really worth that extra skill slot, especially in PvE, where pets are the cheapest way to absorb mob barrage and hamper incoming melee attackers (I know players who just change their secondary to R, just for this extra level 20 ally); making them even cheaper would be so out of balance

Quote:

Originally Posted by dungeonand

its not fair to a ranger to use a skill slot for something there entitiled too.

Wait ... are you saying that rangers should bring an extra level 20 along without cost, just because they're rangers? How in the hell would that be balanced anyway? that's like saying all necromancers should automatically get a level 20+ minion spawned, without having a skill for it, from the 1st corpse they encounter.

glountz · Jun 20, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

/notsigned
I can tell pets are really worth that extra skill slot, especially in PvE, where pets are the cheapest way to absorb mob barrage and hamper incoming melee attackers (I know players who just change their secondary to R, just for this extra level 20 ally); making them even cheaper would be so out of balanceWait ... are you saying that rangers should bring an extra level 20 along without cost, just because they're rangers? How in the hell would that be balanced anyway? that's like saying all necromancers should automatically get a level 20+ minion spawned, without having a skill for it, from the 1st corpse they encounter.

uh?
A MM can bring ONE skill (summon skeletal horror) to have TEN allies. It can bring skills to transfer to them conditions, damage, heal all of them. When they die it doesn(t diable ALL skills for TEN to THREE seconds but rather fuels him with energy. They absorb A LOT of damage.
You don't imagine the death builds (Discord for example) focused on damage where Mmastery is just a BONUS.
Without beast mastery, a pet is a running timed blackout which, when it dies, cannot be revived through normal skills.

Additionally, the pet DOESN'T COME LEVEL 20. It has to be TRAINED to be efficient.

Sorry, but

/SIGNED.

Anyway a good resurrect of this topic which hasn't been answered from ages by Anet.

MrFuzzles · Jun 20, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I'm a bit torn on the issue myself. I agree that "needing" to spend 2 slots in order to start making a basic pet build is a bit much, but on the other hand you can't make pets "too easy" to bring, or all rangers would always bring one.

Though, I wanted to point out that just bringing a pet "for the sake of it" isn't as hot as it sounds, since the pet's damage is determined by your level in beast mastery. If you take your pet with you with no points in BM, it will do about 1-3 damage.

I'm no pro at pvp or anything, but I'm under the impression that most viable pet pvp builds are the one revolving around the selfbuffs which can only be used while your pet is alive. I don't think I've ever seen a pvp (or pve, for that matter) build that focuses on using pet attacks. I haven't had much luck with them myself since they're a nightmare to time correctly.

Bazompora · Jun 20, 2007, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

A MM can bring ONE skill (summon skeletal horror) to have TEN allies. It can bring skills to transfer to them conditions, damage, heal all of them. When they die it doesn(t diable ALL skills for TEN to THREE seconds but rather fuels him with energy. They absorb A LOT of damage.

• Minions have -10 regen, cannot be resurrected, need corpses to be made and do not follow intructions.
• A pet has no negative regen, can always be resurrected, does not need a corpse to appear and follows instructions (not to mention it cannot become hostile to allies).

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You don't imagine the death builds (Discord for example) focused on damage where Mmastery is just a BONUS.

• Death spiking is a joke, unless it's used to fell easy targets in order to provide corpses for minions.
• Beast Mastery however is much more used as an effective "bonus", like I mentioned in my previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Without beast mastery, a pet is a running timed blackout which, when it dies, cannot be revived through normal skills..

A blackout that has soaked up 480+ damage otherwise destined to you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Additionally, the pet DOESN'T COME LEVEL 20. It has to be TRAINED to be efficient.

• Oh yeah? Never heard of Black Widows or Black Moa Birds?
• So, because some take time before they are effective, they should lead to overpowered builds, for "compensation"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

this topic which hasn't been answered from ages by Anet.

Figures why.

rpetiger · Jun 20, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

/notsigned

Seriously people, the idea is about as lame as you can get. Charm animal takes 10 seconds, cause its supposed to be not so easy to get a pet, and aftter that, Charm animal IS your pet, and Damagewise, it is better then just about any spell you can com across, PLUS it is a free source of damage. It dont cost energy to maintain/summon your pet. As for Comfort animal over Raise animal, remember that Raise animal is only in the ares, while Comfort animal works as long as you have Line of sight. Its also faster, so the 10 energy cost is more then adequate.

On the topic of pets VS Minions, consider the following points.

Pets need to level, a minions level is based on Death magic.

Pets can reach Lvl 20, and cost no Energy or attrib points (You can have a pet with no points in Beast Mastery. Minions cant (Besides Fleshies),and Cost energy and Attrib points to raise. Well... you can raise minions if you want to on 0 death magic, but dont expect them to last very long....

You can only have 1 pet, but Pets don't Degen like minions do. They can actually recover HP on their own.

Pets follow commands (usually), Minions attack on sight.

If the ranger dies, the pet remains with him. If the minion master dies, Those Minions can destroy the party

Pets EVOLVE, Minions don't. That is the whole point to leveling your pet. You can train it any way you want to.

Voltar · Jun 21, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

well, i never use that, "overpowered," 5-damage per second pet or whatever they do when you don't have a toolbar full of pet skills. if they did make it so you only need 1 pet skill (not specifically charm) then i would still put 0 in bm and use that sunspear, "never use this skill at all," a couple times before taking it back off and continuing to never use a pet.

all the crap you need to make a pet useful makes your bow useless. i guess that's the point. i trust my bows more than my cheesy spider. i personally believe ranger is a little overpowered as it is but i should probably shut up about that...
maybe instead improving the usability of pets. make them able to agro without you attacking would actually make me consider using them. i'm not a big fan of the bow-shot-pet-aggro dance as it is.

Bazompora · Jun 21, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltar

that, "overpowered," 5-damage per second pet or whatever they do

Oh, but you'd have to agree that, if this dmg and the additional protection would come without the cost of a separate skill slot, it would give an unfair advantage (hence: builds with unfair advantages = "overpowered").

Rugal · Jun 21, 2007, 03:54 AM // 03:54

/not signed

Let's make rangers even more powerful!!! No...

Hyper.nl · Jun 21, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

/signed.

A pet takes too much space on the skill bar now, because you'll usually also need to bring one or two pet attack skills to make a pet useful.

glountz · Jun 21, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

• Minions have -10 regen, cannot be resurrected, need corpses to be made and do not follow intructions.

You conveniently hide the fact that they can be mass healed (if ever a MM could care about this). You conveniently hide the fact also that you absolutely don't care if they die. You are conveniently lying also about their degen, which takes a serious time to accumulate. They need corpses to be made, right, and your pet need a skill slot. guess what I choose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

• A pet has no negative regen, can always be resurrected, does not need a corpse to appear and follows instructions (not to mention it cannot become hostile to allies).

You conveniently hide the fact you must bring another skill to rez them, skill that disable also yours. A dead pet stay dead for the entire battle, while completely disabling you. Guess what happens if you're the monk of your party uh? About following instructions.... uh? agressive, pacific, guardian, target lock, that's "following instructions" for you? Bah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

• Death spiking is a joke, unless it's used to fell easy targets in order to provide corpses for minions.

Learn to toy with death magic. Come back later. Death Magic can deal damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

• Beast Mastery however is much more used as an effective "bonus", like I mentioned in my previous post.

No. You need 12 Beast mastery to have a pet DPS of 11, 13 if Dire. Ridiculous. Death Magic brings you a lot more than 11 DPS, sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

A blackout that has soaked up 480+ damage otherwise destined to you!

Seriously.... Presently, monsters break aggros like mad and comes directly to kill you. THey won't stay stupidly on your pet what do you try to make people believe? Did you ever try to bring a pet in Hard Mode without being a beastmaster loaded with pet protective skills uh? Your pet is just another mana pump for your monks, provided ennemies choose to target him, which is unlikely.
Or you could just bring with 4 Blood Dark bond or Transfer condition to have a virtually indestructible MM as long as he has his army.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

• Oh yeah? Never heard of Black Widows or Black Moa Birds?

Oh yes, I charm them everytime in presearing. Every of my heroes have a Dire Black widow, they are so easy to capture. O wai-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

• So, because some take time before they are effective, they should lead to overpowered builds, for "compensation"?

Ovepowered build? I have yet to see an overpowered build of beast mastery.
Thumpers are thumpers because of RaO and expertise, what's overpowered is their expertise, not their pet. And they are FAR from being an overpowered build. I don't see Beastmasters a lot in High end PvP. And beastmasters rangers share the Mesmers fate in PVE.

I would like Beastmasters popping in PvP and PVE. But the number of skills they need to bring just to begin to be efficient just keep them inferior.

Just show me a place, PVE or PVP, where there are beastmasters. The Barrage/pet build is only there to provide corpses to a necro! The true center of the build is the order-barrage-minion army, not the pets (get rid of barrage and necro and try to tank with your pet - die - then take again the Necro with his army).

-Jaffa- · Jun 21, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

/signed
Can bring my bear along and not lose my cap sig, yay

acidic · Jun 21, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

this will have major ramifications in pvp, and not all of it is good

Voltar · Jun 21, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

Oh, but you'd have to agree that, if this dmg and the additional protection would come without the cost of a separate skill slot

nah, i think they're still pretty useless with 2 or 3 skill slots but i don't think they need to change that. it's roughly 6ish skills on a pet (with pet elite) that make it even comparable to a pre-searing-level (no elite) bow toolbar and really not even then since the pet is doing all the work but you don't have any blocking stances for pet.

i think they've buffed ranger enough...like i said, i would dig some changes to pets themselves that make them more than a drain on hench monk e-bars or distraction when used in mass in a b/p.

frojack · Jun 21, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

I don't see a need any more. In terms of power pet's are particularly strong now. The only thing I'd like is for them to be classed as party members instead of just allies.

Div · Jun 21, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Merge infuse health with lod please. They go together 99% of the time now anyways...^^

Bazompora · Jun 21, 2007, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You conveniently hide the fact that they can be mass healed (if ever a MM could care about this).

• Don't overrate this "mass healing": most of it is lost to healing the automatic health loss from the minions.
• You're "conveniently hiding" the fact that, except for the single Flesh Golem, all minions take significantly more damage than 60 armor targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You conveniently hide the fact also that you absolutely don't care if they die.

Uh ... right ... with 60~75 armor, no armor buff, no protection spells and severely inadequate offensive skills, a MM really doesn't care the only barrier between him/her and a certain death disappears!

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You are conveniently lying also about their degen, which takes a serious time to accumulate.

Minions lose 2 health/second from the start which, at 3 minutes allready, has accumulated up to a loss of 20 health/second. After 6 minutes, they lose 20 health/second and have a hidden 20 health/second loss versus positive regen from healing skills.
More so ever: minions will always die if left alone, while a pet regenerates when it's out of combat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

They need corpses to be made, right, and your pet need a skill slot.

You're "conveniently" hiding the fact that minions need a skill slot too, in order to summon them from corpses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

guess what I choose?

Imbalance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You conveniently hide the fact you must bring another skill to rez them, skill that disable also yours.

A minion cannot even be resurrected; then don't take a "pet rez" and you'll be even on that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

A dead pet stay dead for the entire battle, while completely disabling you.

Oh come on! You could at least try to keep it real!
You can resurrect your pet as many times as you want and, for real Beast Masters, the downtime for "pet death" is only 3 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Guess what happens if you're the monk of your party uh?

People will call you a "noob" ... definitely. A healer/protector Monk, thinking he's a Beast master as well, is deluded.
This "argument" was just for comical relief, wasn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

About following instructions.... uh? agressive, pacific, guardian, target lock, that's "following instructions" for you? Bah. ?

Oh ... again ... look who's "conveniently" leaving out things.
A pet can also: break away from a target in order to flee together with its master and you can add "pet skills" for strategical interrupts and condition applying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Learn to toy with death magic. Come back later. Death Magic can deal damage.

• I prefer to toy with my opponents and to stay realistic about Death Magic.
• A level 15 Charr Warrior can deal damage too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

No. You need 12 Beast mastery to have a pet DPS of 11, 13 if Dire. Ridiculous. Death Magic brings you a lot more than 11 DPS, sorry.

What kind of Beast Master are you?!? You have to bring skills for your pet to deal decent damage! You don't expect a warrior to just win by auto-attacking without using skills either, do you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Seriously.... Presently, monsters break aggros like mad and comes directly to kill you. THey won't stay stupidly on your pet

Then why have you been whining this much about the inconveniances of your pet dying before you? If you die 1st, there's no point in worrying about disabled skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Did you ever try to bring a pet in Hard Mode without being a beastmaster loaded with pet protective skills uh?

Yes, I regularely farm the Shadow Army in the Depths of Madness, in Hard Mode, with 3~4 pets on the party (with no-one more than 4 rank in Beast Mastery), where they soak up enemy ranger Barrage, body-block enemy warriors and take a portion of the aggro. It works great for me ... you should try it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Your pet is just another mana pump for your monks, provided ennemies choose to target him, which is unlikely.

So, the game has to be made unbalanced, to compensate for your lack of imagination?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Or you could just bring with 4 Blood Dark bond or Transfer condition to have a virtually indestructible MM as long as he has his army.

Now ... if you think that's virtually indestructible, then we certainly don't play on the same level. MM have so many weak points, not to mention their army can be sweaped in a matter of second(s) with a well-placed nuke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Oh yes, I charm them everytime in presearing. Every of my heroes have a Dire Black widow, they are so easy to capture. O wai-

I don't know what you're taking people for, but ... there are no heroes in Pre-Searing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Ovepowered build? I have yet to see an overpowered build of beast mastery.

They're not overpowered for now, for aslong as a companion requires a skill slot!
The OP's suggestion is to make it overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I don't see Beastmasters a lot in High end PvP. And beastmasters rangers share the Mesmers fate in PVE.

They are given a hard time, because most don't know how to play them effectively ... but that's people's fault, not the game mechanics'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I don't see Beastmasters a lot in High end PvP.

Same can be said for Blood spikers ... both of them don't provide great synergy with the party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I would like Beastmasters popping in PvP and PVE. But the number of skills they need to bring just to begin to be efficient just keep them inferior.

Several Nightfall Beast Mastery skills provide combined effects allready. But the OP's suggestion completely ruins balance, for it affects not only real Beast Masters (i.e. those who actually invest in rank, equip pet attacks and don't rely on Bow attack skills)

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The Barrage/pet build is only there to provide corpses to a necro! The true center of the build is the order-barrage-minion army, not the pets (get rid of barrage and necro and try to tank with your pet - die - then take again the Necro with his army).

I wasn't talking about the "Barrage/pet build", but about pets absorbing the enemy's Barrage. From one of your previous replies I can make up that you knew that, so stop twisting my words.

Mareak Humner · Jun 21, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

/signed

I agree with this very much so. I take my pet everywhere, and I like to keep my "meat shield" alive so yes I heal the pet. The charm animal sits there; takes up space and I do nothing with it.
Name another skill that does anything like this; I am unaware of any, so I am asking here (be nice) is there another skill that simply takes up residence in your skill slot bar and does nothing?

If there was a change to be made, I say have the charm animal summon the creature, with a certain amount of HP -based on the BM Level- and thereby heal the pet if it were allready summoned, that would effectivly merge the two together, and allow rangers to summon/heal pets, and make more use of the charm animal skill; vice the once per pet use it has now.

I liked the idea of having different charmed animals to pick from, I would not have to let go of the one companion that has been with me all this time. (unrealistic attachment here?)

glountz · Jun 22, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

so stop twisting my words.

You are a pure flamer and troll.
I made points and you nitpicked each of my sentence, twisting my words the first one.
I should never forget Ensign's signature.
Beastmasters will stay in the depths of gimmicky underpowered builds is nothing is done.

PS: Saying that blood spikers are not seen in High end PvP shows clearly that you should play more and troll forums less. Blood spikers have for a long time been a powerful gimmick in HA, and even in GvG (where it was sometimes prefered for a FoC build).
Excepted for thumpers and the glory days of Power of my Ranger, Beastmasters never have been on top of PvP or PVE's favored builds.

frojack · Jun 22, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

I think your beginning to exaggerate. Ever since Enraged Lunge appeared, pet's have been a reliable source of sustainable damage. People have been taking Beastmaster teams on missions for quite a while (I know I have). Sure we'll never do DoA with a pet team but I can live with that.

PvP? We go to TA and get glad points with 3 BM's and a monk. We have even had limited success in HA. (Well, before Para/rit spike nd hex pressure became 'the thing' anyways). It's niche. Not the most powerful course, but it works to a certain degree. More importantly it's fun.
They are a constantly renewable resource that can dish out fairly good damage (especially when they can auto-crit for around 53 damage. 100+ with certain skills). They can Dazed. Have the ability to not be blocked. Sure they can't deep wound (without R/P) but they can lock skills for 20 seconds every 10. It may be a gimmick but it's not completely redundant. Being a Thumper is sooooo much fun also. Even without RaO. It's not as bad as you make out.

Bazompora · Jun 22, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

You are a pure flamer and troll.

What?!?
I disagreed with you and your reaction is to start hurling slurs as these at me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I made points and you nitpicked each of my sentence, twisting my words the first one.

I merely separated the different arguments for structure and provided counter-arguments.
Nowhere did I twist your words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

PS: Saying that blood spikers are not seen in High end PvP shows clearly that you should play more and troll forums less.

This is really getting sick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Blood spikers have for a long time been a powerful gimmick in HA, and even in GvG (where it was sometimes prefered for a FoC build).

... with the stress on "have been". Y'know many builds have once seen their use in different disciplines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Excepted for thumpers and the glory days of Power of my Ranger, Beastmasters never have been on top of PvP or PVE's favored builds.

Beast Masters aquired a negative reputation in the early days, which never faded away. But, again, that's the playerbase's fault for not readjusting their view, not the game mechanics'!